In my chat with Dr. Thiele, a Deputy Director and Senior Investigator in the Center for Cancer Research, she immediately mentions her memories of the initiation of the Women’s Health Initiative over thirty years ago by NIH’s first female Director Dr. Bernadine Healy and guided by Dr. Vivian Pinn, the first Director of the Office of Research on Women’s Health. She spoke about how this initiative was integral in the way we think about inclusion in research today. I also spoke with Dr. Thiele about her career, how inclusion for women in science has changed over the years, and what we can do now to have more women at the table.
What was it like for you at the start of your scientific career?
Over the last few years there has been an intense focus on DEIA and it has really made me think a lot about what it was like when I came to NIH. It has also made me think about my life as a woman in science. My advisors were all men and all of the senior investigators were men at that time. Some of them were very supportive some not as much. My career really took off when I moved to the Pediatric Oncology Branch. I was a Ph.D. scientist in a very clinical department and was told that there was no way I would get a tenure track position in such an environment. But I was so passionate about the work I was doing that I just kept with it, not sure how it would go. I was fortunate to have a lot of success early on; my first paper was in Nature. The field of pediatric oncology was new and exciting, all the questions we were asking felt important.
There wasn’t really a formalized tenure track. The Branch Chief just sort of anointed you and decided it was time to put you on that path. The formalization of this and other processes are a change that help career advancement be more fair. I didn’t have a permanent position and I just kept going. I think I added something that they didn’t have but it was also a time (a little like now) where NIH was being scrutinized for having too few women. I was publishing, engaged in tumor boards and other activities, and was good at making myself known. Like, if I knew I was on the schedule to give a branch talk I would speak to the Chief’s secretary to make sure he would be there.
I remember a colleague and collaborator who was really good but she just couldn’t get the next level position. So I wanted to think about that. Yes, I am sure you’ve seen a lot of really talented women drop out or be forced out of the “pipeline” and we’re losing very talented scientists. For my generation, you had to be all in early in your career and that’s exactly when your family and all of these other obligations are tugging you in various directions. For example, my parents lived in California, my two brothers were also in California but my mother began making it very clear that aging parents should live with their daughters. I said ok, you can come to Bethesda but my mother didn’t think that was ideal and wanted me to leave my position to go to her in California. This is just one example of the pressures women have to deal with. I think (I hope) some of these societal issues are easing for women but it is still so difficult.
Do you have any advice for up-and-coming scientists?
Self-advocacy is so important, I mean of course there are other issues at play, but this is a big thing. When I was in graduate school, somehow I knew that it was important that I was well known. We had a big seminar and I would say to myself during every seminar, “You need to ask a question, they need to know who you are”. I would sit there and sweat and had to keep telling myself “It’s not a stupid question, it’s not a stupid question” until one day I no longer thought about whether the question was stupid or not and just raised my hand. Pushing myself is usually where the growth is and is almost always worth it. The confidence that you gain from doing something that feels difficult is really important.
Tell me about something you’re proud of.
One day I was asked by a senior leader to attend a Women Scientist Advisor meeting. I was actually a little hesitant because I had just gotten tenure but there was only one other woman and she was not interested. I went to the meeting and that began my participation with Women Scientists Advisors group. At that time the group was led by Hynda Kleinman and Joan Schwartz. The group worked hard on pay equity issues. Initially, the focus was pay equity for trainees, once those issues were mostly resolved we focused on government employees. There was so much pushback and resistance to making any real change in that area. Everyone kept saying it wasn’t possible and that the system was so structured. But eventually, we were able to not only identify discrepancies but we were also able to get back pay to when the discrepancies were first identified. That was huge! It was then that I realized that we really could change these large systems. It takes time and you have to be persistent but it can happen.
There was also a time in my career that I had to take a step back because of family obligations. I was concerned about my son and I really wanted to be there for him in what I thought was a difficult time. It was during this time that I received a bad site visit review, I was upset but was hopeful that I would recover and I did. And I don’t think I’ve ever been more proud of anything or anyone than I am my son.
Aligned is a blog written by the Center for Cancer Research's Office of Equity and Inclusion discussing diversity, equity, inclusion and accessibility and highlighting various ways we can all be more involved in creating a more diverse scientific workforce.